Curse

System_Crush · Jan 04, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

IM(I)O you 55 build should include/have a variation with [skill=text]Spoil Victor[/skill] in it, if its real 55 not 105 it SV is both easier to use and more effective than SS, so it belongs in a example build more.

Xylia · Jan 04, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

=== Please give me a PvE Hero Minion Bomber build ===

Here's another couple of alternative hero builds that I've been running with good success:
Death magic: 12+1+3
Soul Reaping: 12+1
[skill]Icy Veins[/skill][skill]Rising Bile[/skill][wiki]Putrid bile[/wiki][skill]Animate Bone Minions[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill](resurrect/optional)

You can trade animate bone horror out for something else, if you don't feel the need to have 2 minion spells. [wiki]Taste of Death[/wiki] would be good for the optional slot, or to trade for bone horror.

[skill]Animate Bone Minions[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Tainted Flesh[/skill][skill]Taste of Death[/skill](optional)[skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill](resurrect/optional)

And I have to disagree with those who say that an MM shouldn't use flesh golem. It may not be the best skill, but it is easy to manage and more than adequate. Maybe you should add a link to one of the flesh golem debates, so that they can read it and draw their own conclusions, rather than starting a new debate here.

Moloch Vein · Jan 04, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Flesh Golem is terrible.

hi
jagged bones

(btw the N/P is a waste of a character slot)

Do you even read through the entire post before you start spewing your context-less standard-Guru trash?

Jagged Bones is not a Minion Master skill. It's a skill for a micro-managing minion bomber best run on a hero.

Jagged · Jan 04, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

IM(I)O you 55 build should include/have a variation with [skill=text]Spoil Victor[/skill] in it, if its real 55 not 105 it SV is both easier to use and more effective than SS, so it belongs in a example build more.

Ok thanks. Like I said, I tried searching for a more recent, in depth 55 build and came up with those 2 I listed.

Edit: Found this link on PvWiki too thanks to the 'hardcore bump' of another 55 thread

:
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/...SS_Necromancer

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 04, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Do you even read through the entire post before you start spewing your context-less standard-Guru trash?

Jagged Bones is not a Minion Master skill. It's a skill for a micro-managing minion bomber best run on a hero.

Are you bad at GW? How the hell is it not a minion master skill.

Ensign · Jan 04, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

I agree with Flesh Golem as the best elite for a person asking for a MM build. Flesh Golem is never a good skill, but it is also never a bad skill. Aura of the Lich and Order of Undeath are sometimes very good skills, but also sometimes bad skills. Golem is at least even. The elite on a MM is not necessary.

I don't really agree with Parabond as a core SS skill. Even when a mob does have hex removal, the AI tends to be so fast that you'll miss the cover oftentimes. Fishing out hex removal is a pain and I wouldn't recommend bothering with it to a new player. Barbs is a skill that I'd call core on a SS bar, but I can understand not putting it in the guide as many people still try to tanknspank.

I think going into several variants on a hero bar is a waste of space, most people asking for bars are just going to set the bar and use that bar in 100% of places. Put the most generic bar up there and move on to more player-focused topics.

Xylia · Jan 04, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't really agree with Parabond as a core SS skill. Even when a mob does have hex removal, the AI tends to be so fast that you'll miss the cover oftentimes. Fishing out hex removal is a pain and I wouldn't recommend bothering with it to a new player. Barbs is a skill that I'd call core on a SS bar, but I can understand not putting it in the guide as many people still try to tanknspank.

I wouldn't call barbs core on an SS bar - barbs only works effectively if you have a significant amount of physical damage in your party (say an MM, or some B/P rangers). If you have enough physical to go barbs, you should probably include mark of pain as well. But this is probably more advanced strategy than this guide is asking for.

The Riven · Jan 04, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Are you bad at GW?

Please refrain from ever posting on this forum again.

Thank you.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 05, 2008, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Please refrain from ever posting on this forum again.

Thank you.

Hi. Please tell me how Jagged Bones is not a minion master skill. If you can't, stfu and gtfo of these forums.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't really agree with Parabond as a core SS skill. Even when a mob does have hex removal, the AI tends to be so fast that you'll miss the cover oftentimes. Fishing out hex removal is a pain and I wouldn't recommend bothering with it to a new player. Barbs is a skill that I'd call core on a SS bar, but I can understand not putting it in the guide as many people still try to tanknspank.

Agreed.

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Hi. Please tell me how Jagged Bones is not a minion master skill. If you can't, stfu and gtfo of these forums.

I already told you how and why the skill isn't a minion master skill. It's not our fault if you lack reading comprehension.

Even though you hardly deserve it (one need only look at your location to figure out why), I'm going to explain it more in detail for others to understand better.

The job of a minion master is to raise and maintain minions. Strong minions (or at least as strong as they get), who do damage and tank (tanking defined as "attracting enemy attention" and relieving pressure from your team.) What Jagged Bones is doing is simply creating weaker minions, whose only forgiving quality is the ability to cause very weak health degeneration that isn't even spammed properly, because the minion is too dumb to understand this quality.

An MM bar using Flesh Golem will have one level 26 minion plus a number level 18 ones. A bar using Jagged will have a number of level 18 ones plus a number of level 16 ones. Add to this the complete nuisance of targetting the minions, something that only makes any sense when blowing them up via Death Nova.

Summarily speaking, Rotting Flesh > Jagged Bones.

Many other Death Magic spells > Rotting Flesh.

Flesh Golem > Jagged Bones for an MM.

Bottom line: Minion Master != Minion Bomber.

Side note: WTB buff to Jagged Horror (level+2)!

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't really agree with Parabond as a core SS skill. Even when a mob does have hex removal, the AI tends to be so fast that you'll miss the cover oftentimes.

More and more, sadly, I'm beginning to agree with this statement. I've learned from day one of my hexing play to cover every hex I cast when in any doubt, and usually at all other times too.

Quote:

Fishing out hex removal is a pain and I wouldn't recommend bothering with it to a new player.

I don't quite agree there, however. Learning to counter a limited hex removal capability is essential for any curser, PvE or PvP.

I'm starting to lean towards removing parasitic bond from the bare-minimum bar and include an AoE hex. It would probably be Suffering or the skill I love to hate, Reckless Haste. The advantage of Suffering vs. Reckless Haste is a larger radius, a shorter recharge and a longer duration. The advantage of Reckless Haste is that it actually does something while in effect (unless you consider -2 health degeneration doing something, I personally don't.) "Fishing out", as you put it, hex removal using Suffering is usually not so hard.

Quote:

Barbs is a skill that I'd call core on a SS bar, but I can understand not putting it in the guide as many people still try to tanknspank.

Agreed, Barbs is fantastic. I believe one reason people don't use it so much is that the physical henchmen in all chapters have so limited utility on their bars that people prefer to go with casters, and aren't quite familiar with how to design working physical bars with utility.

Quote:

I think going into several variants on a hero bar is a waste of space, most people asking for bars are just going to set the bar and use that bar in 100% of places. Put the most generic bar up there and move on to more player-focused topics.

This is also most likely true. I'm trying to show different options but it might get confusing.

distilledwill · Jan 05, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Are you bad at GW? How the hell is it not a minion master skill.

What he means is that Jagged Bones is a minion bomber skill, designed for players who will intentionally destroy their minions to either release a huge death nova/putrid flesh explosion, feed their other minions health, or to simply create a jagged horror. Whilst the minion master would probably focus on keeping his minions standing.

Emik · Jan 05, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

It's about time there was a thread made like this.

/signed for Sticky.

The Riven · Jan 05, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I already told you how and why the skill isn't a minion master skill. It's not our fault if you lack reading comprehension.

Cheers for answering that for me mol, i really should check back more often than i do to answer these questions for myself, and ill try not to feed the trolls again.

On a side note..

/Signed for sticky.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 05, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I already told you how and why the skill isn't a minion master skill. It's not our fault if you lack reading comprehension.

How so? Not once in this thread have I displayed an inability to read and comprehend. You're just blowing your top because you think I'm trolling your thread- don't flatter yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Even though you hardly deserve it (one need only look at your location to figure out why), I'm going to explain it more in detail for others to understand better.

+epeen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The job of a minion master is to raise and maintain minions. Strong minions (or at least as strong as they get), who do damage and tank (tanking defined as "attracting enemy attention" and relieving pressure from your team.) What Jagged Bones is doing is simply creating weaker minions, whose only forgiving quality is the ability to cause very weak health degeneration that isn't even spammed properly, because the minion is too dumb to understand this quality.

Sure. However, Flesh Golem pails in comparison to the other, stronger, death magic elites: Tainted Flesh (not as much as Jagged Bones, though I'd still say it's far better than Golem) and Jagged Bones. As Ensign correctly explained, Flesh Golem is what you'd put on a very plain and basic MM bar for a new player because, to put it simply, it's an alright skill. Of course, though, it's definitely not the best skill to bring. Now to something I think you've completely missed. Minions absorb the damage your party is not taking, which is a good thing. In most cases, and especially in Hard Mode, they'll die much faster than you can reproduce them. As such, Jagged Bones is excellent in that not only are you making use of their inevitable death (Death Nova), but when they do die they will replace themselves, giving you the time to raise more and more minions so you're always controlling 10.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

An MM bar using Flesh Golem will have one level 26 minion plus a number level 18 ones. A bar using Jagged will have a number of level 18 ones plus a number of level 16 ones. Add to this the complete nuisance of targetting the minions, something that only makes any sense when blowing them up via Death Nova.

Summarily speaking, Rotting Flesh > Jagged Bones.

Many other Death Magic spells > Rotting Flesh.

Flesh Golem > Jagged Bones for an MM.

Bottom line: Minion Master != Minion Bomber.

Side note: WTB buff to Jagged Horror (level+2)!

To put it simply for you, because for some reason you don't get it, Jagged Bones = bleeding + poison spam + huge aoe + meatwall. Golem = a single "tank" that does ok damage to a single target. Also, I have no idea why you're so persistent on the whole "not a MM skill" thing- Jagged Bones is run only on MMs and affects only minions. How the hell isn't it a MM skill?

/us for sticky.

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

First of all, you clearly do not read. Jagged Bones is a Minion Bomber skill. It isn't a Minion Master skill. Minion Masters do not run Jagged Bones, Minion Bombers do. Minion Masters are not as suited for Hard Mode content as are Minion Bombers. Minion Masters do not wish for their wall to be composed of sub-par strength minions. The recharge of Jagged Bones is also too long for them to use this elite to maintain said wall with any efficiency.

Second, if you truly believe Tainted Flesh to be a good elite for a PvE minion master, there is no hope. Trying to degen monsters to death (oh, especially in Hard Mode), to the point of wasting an elite on it and dedicating an entire character to spam this enchantment, is almost as dumb as trying to e-deny them.

Third, it's interesting how you manage to take a post from a player holding some clout on this forum, that is disagreeing with you, and transform it to somehow enforcing your opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Flesh Golem is terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I agree with Flesh Golem as the best elite for a person asking for a MM build. Flesh Golem is never a good skill, but it is also never a bad skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

As Ensign correctly explained, Flesh Golem is what you'd put on a very plain and basic MM bar for a new player because, to put it simply, it's an alright skill.

Now, if you're done with your backpeddling and postrationalizing, how about you let us get back to actually improving on this thread?

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 05, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Actually, the general term is Minion Master. Just because you choose to destoy your minions does not mean you change from a Minion Master to a Minion Bomber. But hey, this is your thread, make up what you want.

The recharge on Jagged did get hit, but a 40/40 set should do well to ensure it's not always recharging at 15s (what's Flesh Golem again?), not to mention the other countless ways to quicken your skill recharges in PvE.

You argue that the Minion Master aims to build a strong wall of defence- i.e. level 18 minions vs. level 16 minions. Just because they are 2 levels lower does not mean they are sub-par. The minions are going to die very, very fast, regardless of a level or two. With Jagged Bones you're making use of this, with Flesh Golem you're not. So your wall of minions explodes, dealing massive AoE damage + poison spread. You now only have Aegis/HB+HP/PS and a new batch of minions to ensure your party does not wipe. O noez guys wtf we do nao?

I don't think you play HM PvE if you think Tainted Flesh would be a bad skill to bring on an MM. Not only are you creating widespread degen, which creates dps, but you've got a i) cover condition, ii) cover enchantment and iii) immunity to a pretty devastating condition. Of course, I'm not saying you should run Tainted Flesh over Jagged Bones or Flesh Golem always, but in a mission, and I can think of plenty of HM missions that were made easy with Tainted Flesh, where physicals are abundant it's definitely a skill worth bringing.

As for my previous post, convoluted? It looks pretty coherent to me. I also like how you think my posts are useless where the bulk of yours are personal attacks.

EDIT: Since you're persisting, yes I did say Flesh Golem is a terrible skill. It basically summons a slightly stronger minion at the expense of an elite skill. Ensign argued that the template bar for a Minion Master works in such a way that it can function well without an elite, and so if you had to assign an elite to a new player or one who is inexperienced at running Necromancers in PvE (which is what this thread is about), you would assign them Flesh Golem because it works. Nowhere in my post(s) did I comment on that. Instead of wording it how Ensign did, I simply called it terrible as to be done with it. If you don't mind, could you stop bringing up pointless shit so I can be done with this failure of a thread?

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

^ I'm fine with stopping bringing up the pointless shit that is your posts. I'll get back to improving the guide.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 05, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Again, you're dodging every single point I make. Not because they're invalid, or "shit", but because you know you're wrong. Please, reply to each individual point I make and explain, for the benefit of all the aspiring Necromancers out there, why you believe each one to be invalid or incorrect. If you honestly think they're shit, you're far too closedminded and lacking of the GW knowledge necessary to be creating this type of thread which supposedly helps newer players.

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Actually, I am not answering you, because I know you are wrong, and because I have already answered every point you've made.

If I keep answering you this will drag out ad infinitum, with you refusing to understand and keeping repeating disproven points. It's not my idea of fun, and I'd rather actually focus on improving this thread.

If you still want me to answer something, maybe remeding some of your ignorance, ask a question.